#066 Why Gifted Folk Need Board Games! w/ Justin Ratcliff

[00:02:46] What is it that your family loves to play? Either your kids or yourself and let us know so we can share. And. Inspire others to try them out as well. So stay quirky and, oh, we’ll talk to you again tomorrow. Take care. And bye.

[00:03:35] Hello everyone. Welcome to today’s podcast. It has been a very big week here on the Our Gifted Kids Massive Week for Gifted, Talented and Neurodiversity Awareness Week, a whole week of podcasts. And the theme this year is all about. Equity and joy and our gifted kids were focusing on the joy component.

[00:03:56] Cause I thought, why not? Let’s have some fun this week and shake it up a little. So today I’m very excited to be talking to a friend of mine, Justin Ratcliffe, because when I thought about joy and the things that my kids love and we do as a family, For me, unlike board games came up and when I was thinking about doing the podcast, I’m like, who can I talk to about board games?

[00:04:22] And I don’t know anyone who knows more about board games than Justin. So Justin, welcome. I’m really excited to have you here today.

[00:04:29] Justin Ratcliff: Uh, thanks for having me.

[00:04:31] Sophia Elliott: So, when I think about this week’s theme and gifted joy, board games definitely come up because I, I don’t know about you or anyone listening, but when I was a kid, board games extended to connect for Monopoly operation. And like guess who, right? The one where you’ve gotta guess the face. We weren’t a big board game household, and I don’t know, maybe that was just the eighties.

[00:04:59] Maybe that was all that was on offer. I don’t know. But when I became a parent, this was a really new space for me and early on in our parenting journey. It was actually a psychologist who had suggested to us it when we were looking at some challenges we were having with one of our kids about not just winning and losing, but trying hard things and doing difficult things and being uncomfortable in difficult places because that was such a rare occurrence for them.

[00:05:33] She was actually. Just play some quick card games like fish or just something really quick because then you’re just practicing that winning and losing really quickly and it’s low stakes and it’s just about forming that habit. And so ever since then, our family has kind of gone on this board game adventure, uh, which greatly accelerated when we.

[00:05:59] Justin and his family and started playing board games. Uh, so Justin, first of all, what is it about board games that you love?

[00:06:09] Well, I have a confession. I didn’t care for board games in my probably like twenties or thirties. And I, I was working with someone that was really into board games and I’m like, Really?

[00:06:21] You’re a grown man? Like, what are you doing? Still playing board games or whatever. So I kind of this chauvinistic attitude about it. And then of all games, we had a copy of Pluto kicking around and we sat down and played it and I was absolutely hooked. So through the power of Pluto, which. Doesn’t necessarily rate very highly.

[00:06:40] That was, that was my, uh, my introduction to board gaming. And I became, I’ll say obsessed. And then leading to quite the collection now. But, uh, yeah, just, uh, beware that if you, uh, a game could hook you. So, uh, but in my teenage years I played a lot of risk with my friends, which is a very mean, uh, player elimination.

[00:07:05] Board game that falls under the category of Amer trash, but it’s an Amer trash classic. And it’s the, if monopoly is still selling copies, risk is definitely still selling copies even in, uh, 2021 or 22. So Pluto, watch, watch your stuff.

[00:07:24] Yeah. You never know what gets you, I have to say I really enjoy playing Uno flip with the kids.

[00:07:29] Uh, and I played Uno as a kid, but the new version, you know, flip. It’s quite cheeky. Uh, it is. And yeah, and it can be quite harsh and it’s a little, Well, it’s got

[00:07:40] Justin Ratcliff: that dark side in that

[00:07:41] Sophia Elliott: light side, doesn’t it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s just that added complexity, because let’s face it, the gifted brain loves complexity, loves problem solving, making connections, uh, you know, Many gifted people will have strengths in the visual spatial areas and working memory and processing and all these sort of things.

[00:08:03] So like board games, this is our jam. Right.

[00:08:07] Justin Ratcliff: Well, you know, UNO has always been a top three favorite. Like when Michelle and I first met and we were, uh, backpacking around Japan and like camping and stuff, like we had a deca uno cards with us. I love Uno. It’s, I think it’s a fantastic game. Yeah,

[00:08:19] Sophia Elliott: it is, it is.

[00:08:20] It really is one of my faves. But you touched on something there when you were talking about risk and you categorized that game. And so this is something I learned only a few years ago at the beginning of my board game journey. And it’s that there are different types of board games and. So one that we have latched onto is a collaborative style of board game.

[00:08:45] And we did that because as a family, sometimes it can be a challenge. The winning and losing can be a challenge, but if you’re playing one on one against each other, like losing can be really hard. Right. But if you’re playing as a team to. In that board to like win in that board game. It lessens the impact of losing.

[00:09:07] Yeah. So it becomes a really great way of learning that, you know, practicing not being good at something or, or losing something without the stakes being quite so high. Right. And so we, we kind of dived into this collaborative board game space, but tell us, uh, a little bit about some of the different types of board games that are around these.

[00:09:30] Justin Ratcliff: Well, as you mentioned, there’s collaborative, there’s a competitive, so that would be one of the most basic categories. Uh, and a category, probably even more basic than that, is whether or not it’s an abstract game or it’s a game that has themes. So the game that’s gonna be closest to our understanding of abstract is chess.

[00:09:51] Chess is an abstract game. Chess is also a perfect information game where you don’t, you’re not hiding your cards behind you. You’re definitely hiding. You know your intentions other than winning, but there’s no theme whatsoever, even though the pieces are carved until like Rook and Queen and stuff like that.

[00:10:09] Beyond that, there’s no theme whatsoever. Whereas you can have a very heavily themed game. And this is an example of a cooperative, uh, this game horrified where you’re actually defeating or fighting. Cooperatively against classic, uh, like silver screen monsters. So you’re fighting against Dracula, you’re fighting against the mummy, the werewolf.

[00:10:35] There’s even the swamp creature in here. So, uh, this would be an example of a heavily themed game, Uhhuh, and then sitting underneath of that theme are the mechanics. So, whereas chess is just raw mechanics, Some games like Horrified will have that layer of theme sitting on top of the mechanics of the game where it’s like hard drafting or set collection.

[00:11:00] And then I mentioned the categories of Amira trash versus, uh, the opposite. I don’t know if it’s the opposite, but you have a category of game called Euros. So going back to your copy of Kaan Katan is probably the classic example of a Euro based game. There’s not a lot of conflict. Uh, you’re gaining victory points, uh, high end wood components and stuff.

[00:11:26] Whereas Amer trash is just, you open the box and it’s 800 pounds of plastic and cards and just bits and pieces flying everywhere. And that title of Amer trash is kind of, uh, it’s, it’s not meant to be pejorative. It’s meant to kind of be endearing, but when you open a box of risk, It’s just plastic everywhere.

[00:11:44] So someone, I don’t know where the origins are when it originates that, it’s called Amer trash, but that’s a, a whole genre. And then in the fullness of time, like you have hybrid euro slash Amer trash, so you give it enough time, people are gonna put all the bits and pieces together. But that, that’s, that covers probably the, the broadest categories within board gaming.

[00:12:09] Sophia Elliott: Wow, I hadn’t even heard of those. So let grab it’s,

[00:12:13] Justin Ratcliff: People do very deep dives with this stuff, but I mean, it’s a creative process. I mean, you’re talking about there’s probably easily 10,000 different kinds of board games and stuff. So there’s a lot of creativity in there. There’s a lot of like, just rehashing of mechanics and stuff, cuz it’s hard to create something completely new.

[00:12:31] So a lot of

[00:12:33] Sophia Elliott: so, and mechanics being, uh, do you. The way the game is played. What

[00:12:39] Justin Ratcliff: exactly like, are you throwing dice to advance the game or the story? Are you using cards? Are you using action points? All kinds of things. Yes. Is it a, is it a deck builder? Like I know that, uh, star realms is very popular in your house and it’s Yeah, definitely popular in our house too.

[00:12:56] But that is another genre called a deck builder, where you start with a deck of pretty weak cards. But then you can use the currency from those cards to buy more powerful cards, and then you slowly build up a hand of cards that can be quite devastating. And that’s the charm of it. That’s when you get, when you lay down all your strongest cards, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, you just get a big grin on your face.

[00:13:18] Cause you , you’re about to unleash Hell .

[00:13:21] Sophia Elliott: Yeah. And there’s a lot of strategy and complexity to that. So star realms, I, I meant to grab it, but it is a card. There’s lots of cards now. The kids always wanna play it with me. And I’ve just never quite, it’s never quite stuck. So I’m always like, uh, help mommy be kind.

[00:13:42] Uh, but it’s this, this complexity to it, this strategy to it. And you sort of, one of these card games you can play, I think with up to four people. And you’re, like you said, you’re kind of building a deck of. What am I looking for? Spaceships? Uh, yeah. You know, and it’s like this inter galactic conflict and my kids love it.

[00:14:04] My youngest in particular totally kicks mot and. And so there’s lots of really interesting card games. Actually, I’ve also, this is another one. This is about where I’m at. It’s called Taco Cat Goat Cheese Pizza, and this is hilarious to play of Violent games. We

[00:14:22] Justin Ratcliff: own .

[00:14:23] Sophia Elliott: Yeah, right. It’s sort of, and I think that’s the, you know, it’s the breadth.

[00:14:31] Options you have these days. So you’ve got Taco Cat Go cheese pizza at one end, Star realms on the other, and so many different things in between. So with Taco Cat Go Cheese pizza, there are, you’ve kind of gotta say the name. In an order, but the cards might be different and there’s different actions for different cards and it’s just hilarious.

[00:14:53] Uh, well, it’s basically

[00:14:54] Justin Ratcliff: snap right? With a, with a few more bits sprinkled on top. So it’s a proven game that, that kids enjoy and will understand very quickly. But it’s also really

[00:15:03] Sophia Elliott: fun. Yeah, it’s, it’s hilarious. And then before we were talking to about games like Kaan, which is also another favorite in this household.

[00:15:15] And my, the, I mean, my understanding of that, it’s you, you, it’s a dice game and you’re trying to build roads and cities to resources. So it’s about getting resources to build things and you’ve gotta trade with people. Uh, and so, Yeah, a really fabulous game to play as

[00:15:35] Justin Ratcliff: a family. Katana’s a really, I think the, the enduring quality of Katana is the, is that negotiation mechanic where I might have three I’m, and I’m gonna give a terrible example here, cause I think wool is the one that everyone always is running short of.

[00:15:49] But you might have a lot of this one resource and you need that one resource. Yep. To to complete one of your goals and you have to negotiate with other people around the table. So you, our kids would be experimenting with negotiation techniques and stuff, and, and there’s always gonna be one player like, No, I don’t want you to get ahead.

[00:16:08] But just giving them experience with negotiating with, with others, I think is worth the price of admission. And then, uh, just going back to star roams. A big component of that game that, that attracted me to it playing with Sam was the arithmetic. Cuz you have to track how many uh, points that you have, how much currency you’ve built up, and then for each hand you have to do a bunch of adding and subtracting.

[00:16:33] So playing that with younger kids, it’s, it gives them a reason to interact with math that they might not feel comfortable with otherwise. That, that classic example of sneaking, uh, the veg into this bag bowl, so to speak.

[00:16:45] Sophia Elliott: Yes, definitely. And I think that’s the great things about board games is. There’s, there’s so many different benefits.

[00:16:54] Uh, a lot of them, especially if you’ve got dice or something, you are, you’ve got maths involved. You’re connecting with people, so yeah, you’re socializing. It can make socializing easier as well. Yeah. Cause you’re kind of, they’re doing something. You’re learning about how to interact with people, like you said, negotiating sometimes strategy.

[00:17:15] How am I gonna approach playing with this person and having a

[00:17:18] Justin Ratcliff: poker face?

[00:17:20] Sophia Elliott: Yeah, that’s right. And there is tons of research out there. I did a quick Google and I was like, Yeah, there’s like heaps of benefits of board games. It’s the cognitive skills. And you’ve got all those complex thought processes, which gifted kids love.

[00:17:36] Yeah. Uh, and I wanna, I’ve got a couple of games here for a particular reason. So when we first started out, uh, the kids were younger and so we were looking for collaborative board games, so games that we were playing together and. A couple here that we got and like, and if you’re listening and think, uh, it’s not about finding these specific games, they’re just kind of examples of different types of games because there’s so many out there.

[00:18:07] But two that we have, one was called Catch. And one’s called out Fox and you play them together and catch you. Basically there’s a mouse, everyone’s a cat, and you’ve gotta work together on this board to catch the mouse. And out Foxed. Uh, There’s a thief and you’ve got to collectively figure out who the thief is and before, and you’ve gotta stop.

[00:18:33] You do it before the fox kind of gets away kind of thing. So just great examples of games that are a aimed at younger kids now. I think on the box it says six and plus and five and plus, but we were obviously playing with our kids at younger age than that because, Were gifted and asynchronous and, and so that meant their needs.

[00:18:56] But, uh, so when it sort of, when you’re thinking about your own children, your own family, I think it’s just good to know there’s so many board games out there these days that no matter what the age, there would be some kind of collaborative, uh, board game that would would work if that’s what you’re after.

[00:19:15] Another one of like the forbidden. And the, what’s the other one? There’s, there’s a few Forbidden.

[00:19:23] Justin Ratcliff: There’s Forbidden Desert, Forbidden Island. And then the last one in the series, I believe is Forbidden Sky, or Forbid Forbidden Skies.

[00:19:31] Sophia Elliott: And again, similar kind of. Working together, but for older age groups, more complicated.

[00:19:38] I really enjoy these ones as well. With the kids.

[00:19:40] Justin Ratcliff: Yeah, I, I reckon, uh, Forbidden Island and Forbidden. Probably Forbidden Island more than Forbidden Desert. Cuz Forbidden Desert has an added dimension of difficulty. Whereas, uh, Forbidden Island is definitely what would be considered a gateway game in that.

[00:19:54] Mm-hmm. , you would introduce non-board gamers to it and it would very likely hook them on board . So it’s referred to as a gateway game,

[00:20:03] Sophia Elliott: and I think I’ve also gotta do a warning for parents. And that warning comes around the complexity of games. And so I’ve got a game here called Subatomic, which my.

[00:20:18] Eld who is right into all things molecular, absolutely loves to play, but is really complicated. And so what you really want is to find like-minded peers, , so they can dive into that complexity together. But it’s nice to know that there are games out there like that that can meet the the quirky high complexity needs.

[00:20:44] Our gifted kids

[00:20:45] Justin Ratcliff: and, and our educational nature. Cuz that same writer is, uh, John j Co view. I only mispronounce his name, but we have two copies of his games. He went on to make a cellular or biology game called Psychosis. Oh wow. Yep. And uh, he’s got one out recently from Kickstarter that we’ve got called, uh, Genotype.

[00:21:05] So it’s basically the story of Mendel and his peas. But it’s talking about like your, the job is to basically create different kinds of p plans, which it sounds very, very, uh, geeky and stuff. It is, but it’s also got this educational quality to it and that mixed with like really, really high end components and stuff can, can make for quite a, quite a pleasant experience and, and educational nature.

[00:21:31] So there is, you could almost say that there’s this extra genre of board game around just educational board games and sub atomic and cytosis would be really good examples of that.

[00:21:41] Sophia Elliott: Yeah, I think I could get into making P plants. Over and top of the, you know, making the different molecules. That sounds like a great game.

[00:21:51] Something for everybody. Yeah, definitely. Uh, so some of the great advantages of playing games, you know, it’s all about turn taking. You’ve got maths, you’ve got the connection. And I think as well, it’s a great opportunity, uh, to have that connection time with your kids. And I know. If I’m kind of wanting to spend some one-on-one time or family time, uh, it’ll often default to a board game that I know that particular child likes or we enjoy as a family.

[00:22:29] Because, you know, it’s that opportunity to sit down, to love to work together or against each other, whatever it might be. And, uh, it can be a really nice. Place to kind explore as a family.

[00:22:44] Justin Ratcliff: Some of these games scale really well as well. We should probably mention board game geek.com. Mm-hmm. is a website that, uh, is, it’s basically a huge Library of information on every board game pretty much ever made.

[00:23:02] But one thing it does really well is it will tell, it allows the, uh, board gaming community to weigh in on what the appropriate age for a game is. So a box might say, This game is designed for 12 plus. Whereas the community might say, No, no, no, I play this with my nine year old, and they’re totally comfortable with it.

[00:23:18] So then there would be that, that community grade of what the appropriate age is. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the weight of a game or the complexity of a game that that’s also described on board game geek.com. But most importantly is that player count. Like what, what, how many players does this game absolutely shine at?

[00:23:40] Because there are games that are designed for two players. Chess being an example, and there’s a whole ton of head-to-head games. And another thing it does really well is there’s a community rating about how good the game is. Mm. So Katan sat, I want say Katan. So Katan came out in like 1995. And it was at the, it was number one on board Game Geek for like 15 years, cuz there Oh, wow.

[00:24:06] A, there wasn’t a lot of competition, but b I think a lot of kids grew up playing Kaan and fell in love with board games and then they became board game designers themselves. So that became, that, you know, their starting point would be Kaan, so they would be building off of that. Whereas the, the people that created Kitan, like who were they building off of Monopoly.

[00:24:25] And Chas, So, uh, board game geek.com is an excellent place to, if you’re curious about a game, is it, is it worth spending a lot of money on? Cause some of these games are really quite expensive.

[00:24:37] Sophia Elliott: Yeah. Well, and, and let’s talk about that. So yeah, there is the, the investment aspect of this, uh, some of them are quite the investment.

[00:24:48] But we were actually. Talking earlier, saying that these days actually Kmart is actually doing a lot of, uh, board games at, at very reasonable prices.

[00:24:59] Justin Ratcliff: Kmart’s got a great popular, legitimately good games.

[00:25:05] Sophia Elliott: Yeah, some, so some really good games there at Kmart. So worth having a look around. I know when we, uh, were starting.

[00:25:15] We would head down to the game store and have a chat with people who worked there. And that was really helpful, uh, because that game rolled up Marion.

[00:25:25] Justin Ratcliff: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they’re super, super because they love board games. Uh, the services been really good there and they will definitely steer you in, in the right direction.

[00:25:34] Yeah,

[00:25:35] Sophia Elliott: so it could be really helpful if, if the people who work there are, are board givers because it can feel quite overwhelming. Where to start. And it’s nice to get some recommendations and ideas, uh, about what works. And so I think, uh, actually, you know, a social media Posts about this podcast, I will put out there, What’s your favorite board game?

[00:25:58] So that people can let us know, you know, what are they playing and really enjoying because I think that, uh, knowing getting those recommendations is gold. Uh, definitely. And so, and let’s maybe end on, what are some of your favorite board games at the moment? Let’s say at the moment, ,

[00:26:16] Justin Ratcliff: Uh, no, it’s very much at the moment probably.

[00:26:20] I think my number one favorite game right now, and Sam’s now old enough to start playing it with me, is a game called Terraforming Mars, which came out a couple years ago. Uh, there’s constantly, there’s like hundreds of games coming out every year, but Terraforming Mars just for, so like the, it marries a lot of the mechanics we were talking about.

[00:26:43] So there’s a card aspect of it. There’s a puzzle aspect of it. Cause you’re actually putting. Tiles on Mars to indicate like you’ve, you’re planting a forest or you’re building a city, but the whole object of the game is basically to get the oxygen level up to 14%, the temperature up to eight degrees Celsius, and to have, uh, nine oceans set somewhere on the map.

[00:27:08] And then the way that you place them on the. The way that they fit together can earn you more points. So it’s very puy, It’s can be slightly mean, but it’s, anyways, it’s, it’s got the right level of complexity, uh, the right play time. I quite enjoy it. And now that Sam’s starting to play it and, and being quite good at it, it’s, it’s fun to play with them.

[00:27:31] And it plays relatively well at a two player count. I think it’s three players where it’s really shines, but, so that would be number one. Uh, we tend to play a lot of, uh, pandemic, which is available at Kmart. This is a, an upgraded version of it. An expansion. But you can get pandemic at Kmart, I wanna say for like $39, which is an amazing game.

[00:27:56] It’s a cooperative game. Very easy to learn and pick up and quite challenging. And then, uh, we, we were talking previously about this, uh, this game Yin, which I couldn’t recommend just because it’s hard to get hands on, but this is a, uh, very compelling, uh, abstract that I quite enjoy playing. Game lasts maybe 20 to 30 minutes.

[00:28:25] Uh, it’s very easy to teach. Just not hard or just not easy to come by, frankly. But yeah. You mentioned uh, Out Fox was a very popular title in our house and it, it plays really well with the young ones. Uh, it’s relatively gentle. If should the fox get away, it’s like, ah, he got away. But it’s, you know, it’s, it’s very, very gentle and very pleasant experience I reckon.

[00:28:48] So yeah, those would, and then, uh, Variation on pandemic would be this game, uh, called Ghost Fighting Treasure Hunters. That plays really well with young kids where you’re basically going into a haunted house and stealing these gems. But as the game plays on, the number of ghosts that are in the house increases, and then eventually the ghosts turn into Poltergeist and then it gets so, so the tension ratchets up, but it’s not like extreme.

[00:29:19] It’s not scary. But it’s always like, can I get out of the house in time before we’re, This place is totally overrun with ghosts. And so when you win a cooperative like that, you, you get that sweet. Release of like serotonin and it’s, it’s, it’s fun. It’s a fun game and it’s a fun family experience, I

[00:29:35] Sophia Elliott: think.

[00:29:36] Yeah. I actually remember Lil and Michelle playing that game, uh, when we were over one time and it looked like a lot of fun actually. That was really the different,

[00:29:46] Justin Ratcliff: Yeah. Cause Michelle put like the little blinking lights up in the Polar guys, so it like added to. To the theme of it, and it made it like, even, it made it special, you know?

[00:29:54] Yeah,

[00:29:55] Sophia Elliott: yeah. And do you know, it’s just, it’s a lot of fun. Uh, board games highly underrated if you’re not into board games already. I definitely recommend and checking some out and exploring that as a family. One thing I, I do wanna just kind of end on is it’s not just for kids, like you said, uh, and, uh, over the last kind of year.

[00:30:19] You know, a group of moms and I went to our local, there’s like a cafe for gamers here in Adelaide called The Lost Dice. And they have lots of games there. And you can basically pick a, pick a game, go to your table, play the game, and order like coffee or pots and food. And it’s just a really nice way of socializing over a board game.

[00:30:43] And that’s actually. I came across that pizza, goat cheese, a card. Daniel was hilarious with a bunch of mums who, some of whom had a glass of wine, like it was really funny and. So there’s bound to be places like that around if that appeals to you, check it out. And I know there were a bunch of dads that also went to the same place and, and had a good time.

[00:31:06] So it can be a nice alternative way of socializing, uh, as parents or, you know, getting together. So definitely something

[00:31:15] Justin Ratcliff: for everyone. Well, there are, there are groups that get together in community centers and stuff specifically to play board games. So there’s, there’s quite a board gaming community worldwide and definitely here in Adela.

[00:31:27] Sophia Elliott: Yeah, and I think community is such a important and sometimes challenging thing for gifted kids and families. Do you know that finding that peer as a gifted kid can be incredibly difficult? So this is, uh, a possibility where you might find other peers. In that kind of extracurricular activity and well worth having a look at.

[00:31:54] And I will be doing another episode on d and d alone, but it’s a classic example of my, one of my kids goes to a d and d group and I’m like, You can’t sue a cat for hitting a gifted person in that group. So it’s that opportunity of finding like my peers and I think the board gaining community would potentially be similar.

[00:32:13] Certainly, you know, lots of people with a shared interest.

[00:32:18] so thank you Justin for joining us today. I really appreciate your insight there into board games, and I know you’ve got an absolute stash of games,

[00:32:27] Justin Ratcliff: there. Yeah. And it takes up a lot of real estate in the house, so

[00:32:31] Sophia Elliott: Yeah. Well worth it though.

[00:32:33] Absolutely. And yeah, appreciate your time in, in. Through, uh, all the different types of board games and just kind of opening up that world for us a little bit. I will share the link to, is it board game geek.com? Yeah.

[00:32:49] Justin Ratcliff: And, and there one other link that I would recommend is, uh, I think it’s called the Board Game Oracle, but it.

[00:32:55] It goes out to all the different websites that sell board games, and it will, it’ll rank from cheapest to most expensive. So if you’re looking for a bargain, if someone’s got it on sale, that’s the place to go to find the cheapest copy available in Australia

[00:33:09] Sophia Elliott: Gold. That’s brilliant. Thank you. I’ll share those and.

[00:33:13] Yeah. Encourage everyone to go check out board games and something other than Monopoly or connect

[00:33:21] Justin Ratcliff: and don’t underestimate UNO or Pluto because they are powerful gateways to the world of gaming. .

[00:33:27] Sophia Elliott: Absolutely, Absolutely right. Awesome. Thanks so much.

[00:33:31] Justin Ratcliff: Thank you for having me. Thank you.